Topic started by Nagarajan (@ dkf-gw.dkf.de) on Mon Jan 15 11:26:33 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

We often hear from polticians, history books etc that the British people took away all the wealth from India and made it poor. This is said to be one of the reason why India is still poor. But how true is it? let us take examples of two countries shattered by the world war.

I went through an old article in National Geographic on Hiroshima. It contained two photographs, one after the bomb where there was just empty ground and another one, which showed skyscrapers with a small marble slab marking the place where the bomb fell.

Another instance is Frankfurt, Germany had lost almost all their man power, they had no money, nothing. But now she is the power house of the european economy.

sometimes, a complete overhaul of the system is useful rather than applying patches everday. Like after a forest fire, the plants grow more than before.

Responses:

• From: Sundar (@ ip9.79.blca.blazenet.net) on: Mon Jan 15 17:08:51 EST 2001
  
  On the other hand, we didn't get a Marshall Plan of the kind that reconstructed Europe or massive reconstruction period in Japan under McArthur and the Americans, did we now? Not even some bricks and cement after that infamous "Madras-la Emden gundu potta varusham" =)
  
  Give the Japanese and Germans credit, they both have a tremendous importance given to craftsmanship, knowledge and quality that we don't have or are unwilling to pay for. They are also both quite conformist and orderly societies. Ever seen japanese cheer for baseball games? *griN!*
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ ac9a09e6.ipt.aol.com) on: Mon Jan 15 21:47:32 EST 2001
  
  Economic drain by British? Have a look at the list of post-independence scams and check out who is more responsible
  
  The great Indian scams:
  -----------------------
  
  # Project Name Amount (in Rs)
  - ------------ --------------
  1 Share scam 1000 crores
  2 Sugar scam 650 crores
  3 Bofors scam 65 crores
  4 Hawala case 65 crores
  5 Housing scam 18 crores
  6 M.P. trading 32 crores
  7 Fertilizer scam 133 crores
  8 Medicine Equipment scam 5000 crores
  9 Telecom case 1200 crores
  10 Newsprint case 20 crores
  11 Indian bank scam 1336 crores
  12 Fodder scam (Bihar) 1000 crores
  13 Land scam (Bihar) 400 crores
  14 Bitumen scam (Bihar) 100 crores
  15 Medicine scam (Bihar) 100 crores
  16 Forest case (Meghalaya) 300 crores
  17 Ayurveda scam (UP) 32 crores
  18 Dhoti-Saree scam (Tamil) 11 crores
  19 Coal scam (Tamilnadu) 750 crores
  20 Forest reserve scam (Meghalaya) 75 crores
  21 Wakf Scam (West Bengal) 1600 crore
  22 Dental College Case (Karnataka) 50 lakhs
  
  This is just the tip of the iceberg
  
  
  
• From: Mani M. Manivannan (@ pc-243-78.corp.3com.com) on: Mon Jan 15 22:36:32 EST 2001
  
  Well, even with all that, the cost of colonialism for India was substantially higher. I cannot find my reference on some of those numbers immediately. I will try to dig into my old archives.
  
  However, what is more fascinating is why some nations are NOW rich and why other nations are NOW poor. There have been books written on this subject. Once such book is reviewed at:
  
  http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/Econ_Articles/Reviews/landes.html
  
  It appears that the Chinese and to a certain extent the Indians were good innovators and had fairly advanced science and technology compared to the rest of the world until about the 14th century. That is when muslim expansion and European colonialism begin. Would the Indians have developed their own Industrial revolution on their own? Is the Information Revolution in modern India destined to lift India out of her misery just as the Industrial revolution did it for the poor Britain? Or are there fundamental structural problems that cannot be overcome?
  
  
• From: Mani M. Manivannan (@ pc-243-78.corp.3com.com) on: Tue Jan 16 00:39:19 EST 2001
  
  http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/201099/detOPI01.htm
  By Brahma Chellaney appeared in "The Hindustan Times" on October 20, 1999
  
  Security is equally important for safeguarding wealth. Before India fell prey to the ravages of colonialism, it accounted for about 24.5 per cent of global manufacturing output in 1750, as Paul Kennedy has pointed out in The Rise and Fall of Great Powers.
  
  But after it became an appendage of the British capitalist economy, its share fell to 1.7 per cent by the beginning of the 20th century. Colonialism stripped India of its immense wealth and left it as a “Third World” nation. "
  
  For some western opinions on this topic, see:
  
  http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/18/may00/keith.htm
  http://trc.ucdavis.edu/erickson/mru/burkespr.htm
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ ac885f80.ipt.aol.com) on: Tue Jan 16 02:11:21 EST 2001
  
  Manivannan,
  
  I do agree that colonialism stripped India of wealth, at the sametime it also helped in modernisation, forming a political entity(India) etc., But our economy probably would've been better if we had proper planning and leaders. What we lacked is that. I still have a feeling that we rushed into Industrial revolution without proper infrastructure. We should've given more importance / priority to cottage industries then (At the time of independence). That would've helped the villages, would've benefited number of peoples to get their basic necessities, prevented cities from getting over crowded etc., Add to it the scams that had happened in 50 years. Britishes alone cannot be held accountable for the mess.
  
  
• From: Nagarajan (@ dkf-gw.dkf.de) on: Tue Jan 16 06:46:21 EST 2001
  
  yes, one reason for the success of Germany and Japan is their discipline. Everyone follows the rules and pays the taxes. More than half of your earnings goes away as tax and the German will not mind if you take away 80% as tax. Really it will appear crazy to us who pay so little.
  
  Another reason is the support they give for rearing children and taking care of old people.
  
  Talking of scams, why does the Indian forget the scams so easily. Is it because more than half of the electorate are illiterate?
  
  
• From: regards (@ dialupu129.mpls.uswest.net) on: Tue Jan 16 07:48:38 EST 2001
  
  India can never *ever* become a wealthy nation
  unless and until our population is controlled.
  no amount of planning or hard work can lift india
  out of its present misery. we have bred like pigs.
  There is an optimum population upto which the
  country's resources can support.
  IMO the ideal population of india should be around
  250-300 million, not 1000 million we have now.
  
  
• From: Madhu (@ webproxy03qfe0.sbi.com) on: Tue Jan 16 09:35:26 EST 2001
  
  To All,
  Just imagine if Indian could not take advantage of Information Technology, say from 1980 thru 2010, what kind of impact it will have on Indian economy and the cultural development. This was exactly what happend to India during 250 year of British occupation. India has completely bypassed the Industrial revolution. Britan used India as a dumping ground for their industrial goods. They started Universities and Railroad network to run their government and sell their products. 250 years later we are trying to catch up the lost time. Today, we are suffering with illiteracy, over population and economic deprivation. So when you see some Indian worker still carring weights on their head, it is due to the lost opportunity of Industrial revolution. Am I giving any credit to our crrent 5 year-Plan policy makers? No, they are worse than the British.
  
  
• From: Karthik Obla (@ bmt-mail.boralmti.com) on: Tue Jan 16 19:10:39 EST 2001
  
  Colonialism obviously severely damaged our economy. Just imagine if we still contributed about 20% of the world's manufacturing output (as opposed to the current 1%) we could be about 20 times richer! There would be no need for any one to emigrate out of India, today would it?
  
  But I think there is just no point in holding anyone else accountable for our mess. The mess is our own. Even Islamic invasions and later British invasions is due to our own internal weaknesses.
  
  And Mr. Nagarajan, what complete overhaul of the system are you talking about? Can you be a little more specific? As some one else pointed out the single important reason for Germany's and Japan's success was the Marshall plan.
  
  
• From: Mani M. Manivannan (@ pc-243-78.corp.3com.com) on: Tue Jan 16 23:20:20 EST 2001
  
  You guys should REALLY read the article at the link that I gave above:
  
  http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/Econ_Articles/Reviews/landes.html
  
  It is common sense that what you tax you discourage. All taxes have secondary effects. Even the left leaning Commonweal has been advocating a reduction or abolition of personal taxes while imposing pollution taxes and surtaxes on businesses to modify their behavior for good social causes. Taxes modify behavior. That is why governments want to use that power to control the behavior of its population, ontensibly for their own economic good.
  
  I think that any entity that takes away more than 30% (your sensibility might vary) of anybody's earned wages is literally robbing a working person. And that is immoral and counter-productive.
  
  Coming back to the topic at hand, besides the Marshall plan, there are other issues that differentiate the effects of colonialism in India and the conquest of axis powers in the second world war. While Japanese and European cities suffered significant damage, the real wealth, the knowledge of its people to rebuild, was intact. With the infusion of capital, they were able to recreate their wealth rapidly.
  
  Colonialism and the alien rule prior to that sapped Indians of self-confidence and a sense of ownership of their own land. Indians were facing usurious taxes from robber barons and adventurists of all kinds for over a thousand years. The only way a peasant can survive such taxation is by lying, cheating and hiding the income from the taxman. That they continue that even today makes it quite clear that the tax rate is very high and that they don't see any benefit in paying taxes to a distant authority.
  
  If the tax powers primarily exist with local governments that deliver services to the tax-payers and are accountable to them, I believe that tax-payers will be more forthcoming. All governments and entities above the local government should exist primariy on user fees, perhaps from the local governments and on occasion from the common man. A universal income tax and universal government welfare benefits both deliver far less in comparison to the costs of administration.
  
  And I don't buy into Malthusian alarmism. Yes, India has 1 billion people. That also means that if you are looking for a one in a million kind of person, India has a thousand of them! That kind of number can work for you if the system is designed to unleash the creative powers of ALL its people. India's problem is that the rigid hierarchial layers (economic as well as social) suppress the creative powers of those at the bottom. Everybody believes that their share of the economic Dosai is at risk if the other guy is allowed to grow. They don't see that they can make lot more Dosais and everybody can eat and be wealthy. It is not a zero sum game.
  
  
• From: Karthik-I (@ 207.150.192.49) on: Wed Jan 17 13:05:45 EST 2001
  
  "Everybody believes that their share of the economic Dosai is at risk if the other guy is allowed to grow. "
  
  Very funny use of words (Dosai for pie) :). And a very good point too.
  
  Karthik-I
  
  
• From: COL.K.R.MURTY (@ pool-68-163-146-188.bos.east.verizon.net) on: Sat Nov 1 08:54:41
  
  While I do see the points made in the main write up and the responses,it reminds me of the famous story of the six blind men and the elephant,
  It is sheer arrogance and audacity to think that the problems of a subcontinent like India with a history of ober 4000tears behind it and its nresilience can be solved by a few mails and armchair politicians.
  Basically we have the wealth, minerals,water,intellectual powerm manpower, and even the will.What we want is an aggressive self assertion whjch comes out of confidence in our strengths and achievements.
  For this our media and people like all of you can comtribute .
  See the true perspective.. Inspite of 1 billion population, we are selfsufficient in food.
  From a nation , under the British rule we were importing even sewing needles, and buck,es for pants.. In 50 years we are making every type of machinery.. you name it.
  From a State, Madras.. which had 4(FOUR) engg colleges in 1952, we have over800 of them, in the same Zone.
  I have personally fabricated an 8 legged OIL platform , NQG in the BOMBAY high now. in a record time of 7 months, SAME as Timings in KOREA or Japan.--
  I feel therefore that loking at positive aspects and looking up and straight with a conficence is what is essential.
  
  

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