Topic started by Karthik (@ proxy.freightliner.com) on Thu Nov 2 14:04:50 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

While it gave power and recognition to all languages, we also see that it has led to acrimony among member states. Did our leaders of that time had any other choice ? Was it a good move ? Let us not degenerate this thread in to bashings. What would you have done, given the political aspirations of the people at that time, if you were given the mantle ?

Responses:

• From: Krishnan (@ 208.48.199.162) on: Thu Nov 2 14:57:26 EST 2000
  
  Centre did'nt agree to this move that easily. It was made to after series of agitations since 1950.
  See the following link
  
  http://www.yomari.com/p-review/1999/05/270599/cor.html
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ proxy.freightliner.com) on: Thu Nov 2 19:21:51 EST 2000
  
  Yes, but was it a good move ? We are facing so many inter-state problems isn't it ? We cannot see ourselves as ppl living on one country. Look at so many ppl bashing kannadigas who inturn bash Tamilians ?
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ ac89af2f.ipt.aol.com) on: Thu Nov 2 20:23:55 EST 2000
  
  I think "Yes" b'coz
  
  1. There was no other better option available at that time.
  
  2. Easy for administration of states also.
  
  BTW Do u think that there was any other alternate option which could've been better?
  
  
• From: Sujata (@ 24.69.170.174.on.wave.home.com) on: Thu Nov 2 21:42:37 EST 2000
  
  I don't believe it was a good idea. If we look at India as a whole we are a very linguistically mixed country. If we take Tamilnadu for example we have a sizeable Telugu and Malayalee population, Kerala has a large Tamil, Kannadiga, and Tulu population, Karnataka has a large Maharashtrian and Tamil population and this is the case in most states of India. Given this situation, linguistic reorganization was short sighted in my opinion. Yes, there were some agitations, but these could have been easily sorted out and things would certainly have settled down in the long run. Indians basically feel Indian, the linguistic issues only spring up when there is an economic crisis or shortage of some kind, for e.g., jobs.
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ ac99173e.ipt.aol.com) on: Thu Nov 2 23:11:07 EST 2000
  
  Then what is the alternative? What are the other criterias that could've been considered on formation of states?
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ ac99173e.ipt.aol.com) on: Thu Nov 2 23:28:46 EST 2000
  
  "Indians basically feel Indian, the linguistic issues only spring up when there is an economic crisis or shortage of some kind, for e.g., jobs"
  
  Sujata,
  
  What about education? Could u imagine having 20-25 languages / medium of instructions at school level in each and every state?
  
  
• From: Sujata (@ 24.69.170.174.on.wave.home.com) on: Fri Nov 3 06:51:29 EST 2000
  
  Krishnan,
  
  This was already taken care of in those days. In the predominantly Tamil speaking areas of Kerala, Tamil was the medium. There would be schools serving a particular language in a particular area depending on the demand for this in the area.
  
  
• From: Sujata (@ 24.69.170.174.on.wave.home.com) on: Fri Nov 3 06:51:46 EST 2000
  
  Krishnan,
  
  This was already taken care of in those days. For e.g., in the olden days, in the predominantly Tamil speaking areas of Kerala, Tamil was the medium. There would be schools serving a particular language in a particular area depending on the demand for this in the area.
  
  
• From: V (@ deskgate.it.verio.net) on: Fri Nov 3 16:00:29 EST 2000
  
  Even now there are Telugu medium sections in a big school in madras.
  But I have seen lot of my friends who are from other southern states become more comfortable with tamil than their mother tongue.
  Linguistic issue has been more politicalised out of proportion, esp after Independance.
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ 208.48.199.162) on: Fri Nov 3 16:54:18 EST 2000
  
  That's all fine "Akka". But look from the administration point of view. Both yours and Sujata's views are based on pre-dominant minorities. If there are sizable number of people who speak different languages live in a particular state equally spread accross the state instead of being concentrated on particular areas (Which I think is quite possible if states are not divided based on languages), each and every minute things in our everyday life is going to create administrative problems. In such case which language will be the official language of that state?
  
  For example
  
  1. Which language u'll have sign boards fixed up
  
  2. On which languages u'll have name boards on buses.
  
  Like this there are many, many small issues which has tobe taken care of.
  
  BTW I haven't got any answer regarding the alternate option
  
  
• From: Sujata (@ 24.69.170.174.on.wave.home.com) on: Fri Nov 3 17:39:55 EST 2000
  
  Krishnan, answers in line.
  
  For example
  
  >>1. Which language u'll have sign boards fixed up.<<
  
  No regulation. Govt. offices in as many Indian languages as necessary, others as they please.
  
  
  >>2. On which languages u'll have name boards on buses. <<
  
  Use numbers only :-) Names don't make a difference even today. It is the number that counts.
  
  >>BTW I haven't got any answer regarding the alternate option<<
  
  Alternative, as it was at the time of indpendence. There is a lot of shared history among the populations that are now linguistically separated as different states, for e.g., Palghat and Coimbatore, Trivandrum and Kanyakumari, Vellore/Andhra. Or let's go by the ancient kingdoms :-)
  
  P.S. On language, we might be able to come up with something along the lines of EU.
  
  Here's a news item:
  Quote:
  The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English
  will be the official language of the EU rather than German, which was
  the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's
  government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement
  and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would be known as
  "EuroEnglish".
  
  In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will
  make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in
  favour of the "k". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have
  one less letter.
  
  There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
  troublesome "ph" will be replaced with the "f". This will make words
  like "fotograf" 20 % shorter. In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the
  new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated
  changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double
  letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al
  wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e"'s in the languag is
  disgraceful, and they should go away.
  
  By the 4th yar, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th"
  with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be
  dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be
  aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a
  reli sensibl riten styl.
  
  Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu
  understand ech ozer.
  
  ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU!
  
  
  *end quote*
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ proxy.freightliner.com) on: Fri Nov 3 18:02:43 EST 2000
  
  >>>BTW I haven't got any answer regarding the alternate option<<<
  
  If states need to be carved for administration then i suppose, we could have carved it on equitable distribution of population or land isn't it ? I think britishers did it a little better by dividing india as muslims, hindus and parsis (that too they had to rule not govern).
  Didn't u think british had a better administration with madras presidency ? Linguistic basis for states was just to placate regional forces so that the center can keep its power. That's what i feel.
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ 208.48.199.162) on: Fri Nov 3 18:35:52 EST 2000
  
  Great work Sujata, But do u think that EU type agreement is practically possible in India? US despite having 97% English speaking population has to hesitate / think a lot before making English as an official laguage - mentioned in the following link
  
  http://www.nccj.org/nccj3.nsf/e41d4a099653f50f8525671a0074ddd2/75a684a84a48b78985256724005c93a6?OpenDocument
  
  
  
• From: Sujata (@ 24.69.170.174.on.wave.home.com) on: Fri Nov 3 21:39:13 EST 2000
  
  Krishnan,
  
  I sincerely hope we can come to such an agreement. Language alone does not define us and we have a lot more than define us and we share these with our fellow Indians. I think an administrative reorganization of the states would have been the ideal model and I hope this can be done some day. As V stated, the linguistic issues are more politics than anything else, just like the caste based parties of today.
  
  
• From: anu (@ 164.164.86.66) on: Sat Nov 4 12:26:13 EST 2000
  
  Sujata,
  Languages do not divide us - True, but the evolution of languages had a lot to do with geography. And any other way of division into states has to consider geography too - as an important factor. So I guess untimately the linguistic division would be the best way out. Division based on old kingdoms could become too complex, because the boundaries of the kingdoms used to change from time to time. Hence it could lead to more claims/counter-claims.
  
  
• From: Sujata (@ 24.69.170.174.on.wave.home.com) on: Sat Nov 4 13:53:00 EST 2000
  
  Anu,
  
  I agree, may be historic kingdom based division is not a good idea. Linguistics also doesn't seem like a good idea. Why should only some languages have this privilege? What about all the other stateless languages like Tulu, Konkani, Badaga, etc. Don't you think Karthik's suggestion of administrative divisions makes more sense? The administrative divisions could depend on georgraphy, i.e., so many square kiliometeres make a state :-)
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ 107.phoenix-03-04rs.az.dial-access.att.net) on: Sun Nov 5 16:43:40 EST 2000
  
  "Why should only some languages have this privilege? "
  
  Sujata,
  
  This is what exactly will be the problem, if u try to come to EU type of agreement. This is what I am driving at from the beginning. Which language do u think people will accept? Both English and Hindi are alien to many.
  
  Or may be we can combine both Karthik's idea of administrative divn., with CHO's idea in Mohammed-bin-Thuglak (ie) Make "Parasega mozhi" or German/Latin etc., as the national language to ensure that both North & South Indians have to learn that language.
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ 107.phoenix-03-04rs.az.dial-access.att.net) on: Sun Nov 5 16:47:30 EST 2000
  
  "North & South Indians have to learn that language."
  
  Read as - to ensure that people in all states have to learn that language
  
  
• From: Sujata (@ 24.69.170.174.on.wave.home.com) on: Sun Nov 5 17:22:37 EST 2000
  
  Krishnan,
  
  I am all for Cho's Paraseega mozhi!! Another option would be to make the language spoken by the least number of Indians the national language.
  
  
• From: anu (@ 164.164.86.66) on: Mon Nov 6 13:07:43 EST 2000
  
  I think both of you are joking, aren't you;-)
  
  Why should we have foreign languages German etc as the national language when we have at least 13 well-known languages in India !!
  
  On a general context I guess administrative division would be a good idea. Though - how about 30 sq. km of desert in Rajastan & 30 sq km of paddy fields in Punjab? Won't it make some states far rich/poor than others?
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ c998718-a.bvrtn1.or.home.com) on: Mon Nov 6 20:45:25 EST 2000
  
  >>>Won't it make some states far rich/poor than others<<<
  That's why we have a central govt. isn't it ? How do they handle such problems in USA ?
  
  
• From: meesahjajabinx (@ kmb-60-1-6.byu.edu) on: Thu Oct 9 01:55:34
  
  well, there was alot of discrimination at first, and there still is (albeit, much of the discrimination is not blatant, but depends on job circumstances---you have to hire an english speaker in most places).
  have you considered the philippines' issue for finding their national language?
  
  

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