References to castes in tamil grammar books.
Topic started by ravi sundaram (@ pa-bethelpark2a-530.pit.adelphia.net) on Fri Apr 20 19:52:44 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
There is a thread on kalki's novel ponniyin selvan in the "stories forum". That thread should actually be in tamil literature. On top of it that thread has deviated to some refereces to castes in old tamil literature and society. So I am branching this off from that thread
http://www.forumhub.com/stories/27768.01.17.12.html
Let us leave ponniyin selvan there and continue this topic here.
Responses:
- From: ravi sundaram (@ pa-bethelpark2a-530.pit.adelphia.net)
on: Fri Apr 20 19:53:18
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- From: ravi sundaram (@ pa-bethelpark2a-530.pit.adelphia.net)
on: Fri Apr 20 20:01:14
GD,
Please give me some more time to dig up the references to punishments to bramins.
I was reading the history books by pa. sivanadi about the invasion of muslims into
india and the south. One of the things that truly shocked the population was that
they killed even the bramins. In that context he said the highest punishments for bramins was blinding and amputation but never death penalty. I want to locate the book to be sure. But I'm kind of busy and it takes a while to hunt by eyeball. Google and Hotbot have spoiled me :-)
- From: V.C.Vijayaraghavan (@ cache-hay.cableinet.co.uk)
on: Sat Apr 21 04:23:53
Ravi Sundaram
What is the point of obessing oneself with what was the punishment for Brahmins in ages gone by.? That is all history. All are equal in the eyes of law and the basic premise of criminal jurisprudence is that punishments should be same for all for the same crime under similar circumstances.
- From: Sujata (@ 24.69.170.174.on.wave.home.com)
on: Sat Apr 21 11:46:10
Is there not some reference in the Mahabharata, where Yudhishtra when asked to judge the different castes, judges the Brahmint he harshest?
- From: ravi sundaram (@ pa-bethelpark2a-530.pit.adelphia.net)
on: Sat Apr 21 12:37:09
VCVijayaraghavan,
Please look at the context. Please read the ponniyin selvan thread.
The assassasins of Aditya Karikalan, elder brother of Rajaraja Chozan was not
put to death. In that context GD said those days the harshest panishment for
bramins was just stripping them of their wealth and exile. I was trying to counter
that. The point is not to start another round of bramin bashing. People who dont
learn from history are condemned to repeat it.
Sujatha, according to the scriptures Manu levies the harshest penalties on, and
demands highest levels of moral behaviour from, the bramins. (I am relying on Cho's
recent series on this topic). But the actual practice was that B's were exempted from
death penalty. Mainly because of the fear of "bramma haththi dhOsham". But I believe
they were given all other punishments.
- From: V.C.Vijayaraghavan (@ cache-hay.cableinet.co.uk)
on: Sat Apr 21 13:53:14
Ravi
Point accepted.
I remember reading in Ananda Rangam Pillai's diaries , who lived in the 2nd half of 18th centuries and probably the only Indian diarist of any imporance, metions that some brahmin got into a fight with another man in Madras sometime in 1760s and was imprisoned for a few days. By 18th century, brahmins were no different from anyone juridically.
The only place where Brahmins were given priveleged place in law , was in Nepal till the beginning of the 20th century
- From: Hemant - UK (@ cache-gat.cableinet.co.uk)
on: Sat Apr 21 17:08:13
¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âò¾¢ý ¦ºöÔû ÂÄ¢ø ÕóÐ º¢Ä
Åâ¸û.
í§¸ À¡÷ôÀ¡ý ±ýÈ¡ø brahmin ±ýÚ ¦À¡ÕÇ¡
±ýÚ ¦¾Ã¢ÂÅ¢ø¨Ä.
¬É¡ø "§ÀÏ¾Ì º¢ÈôÀ¢ý À¡÷ôÀ¡ý" ±ýÚ
ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀθ¢ÈÐ. ¨¾ ¿¡ý "À¡÷ôÀÉ÷¸û
¯Â÷ó¾ Á¾¢ôÀ¢üÌ ¯Ã¢ÂÅ÷¸û" ±ýÚ ¦À¡Õû
±ÎòÐ즸¡ûÇÄ¡õ ±ýÚ ¿¢¨É츢§Èý.
"À¡÷ôÀ¡ý, À¡í¸ý, §¾¡Æ¢, ¦ºÅ¢Ä¢,
º¢÷ò¾Ì º¢ÈôÀ¢ý ¸¢ÆÅý, ¸¢Æò¾¢¦Â¡Î
«Ç× Âø ÁÃÀ¢ý «Ú Ũ¸§Â¡Õõ
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À¡½ý, Üò¾ý, Å¢ÈÄ¢, ÀÃò¨¾,
¬½õ º¡ýÈ «È¢Å÷, ¸ñ§¼¡÷,
§ÀÏ¾Ì º¢ÈôÀ¢ý À¡÷ôÀ¡ý. Ӿġ,
ÓýÛÈì ¸¢Çó¾ «ÚŦáΠ¦¾¡¨¸.
¦¾¡ø ¦¿È¢ ÁÃÀ¢ý ¸üÀ¢üÌ ¯Ã¢Â÷"
¬¾¡Ãõ
http://www.tamilvu.org/library/l0100/html/l0100ind.htm
- From: Hemant - UK (@ cache-gat.cableinet.co.uk)
on: Sat Apr 21 17:14:17
À¡÷ôÀ¡ý ±ýÀ¾ý ¦À¡Õû brahmin ±ýÈ¡ø,
¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âõ ±Ø¾ôÀð¼ ¸¡Äò¾¢§Ä§Â,
«Å÷¸Ù¨¼Â ¨¸Åñ½õ Õó¾¢Õì¸ §ÅñÎõ.
«¾É¡ø ¾É¢òÐÅõ Å¡öó¾ ¾Á¢úî ºã¸õ
ÀüȢ ¬¾¡Ãí¸û ¿ÁìÌì ̨ÈÅ¡¸§Å
¦¾ýÀθ¢ýÈÉ.
- From: Hemant - UK (@ cache-gat.cableinet.co.uk)
on: Sat Apr 21 17:50:37
Ð ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Â ÁÃÒ Âø.
í§¸ «ó¾½÷ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø ÀÄ ¼í¸Ç¢ø
ÅÕ¸¢ÈÐ.
"á§Ä ¸Ã¸õ Ó째¡ø Á¨½§Â
¬Ôõ ¸¡¨Ä «ó¾½÷ìÌ ¯Ã¢Â"
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±ýÚ ¦À¡Õû ±ÎòÐ즸¡û¸¢§Èý.
«ó¾½÷ ±ýÀÐ ¾Åõ ¦ºöÔõ ÓɢŨÃÔõ
íÌ ÌÈ¢ì¸ìÜÎõ.
"À¨¼Ôõ ¦¸¡ÊÔõ ̨¼Ôõ ÓÃÍõ
¿¨¼ ¿Å¢ø ÒÃÅ¢Ôõ ¸Ç¢Úõ §¾Õõ
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«ó¾½¡Ç÷ìÌ ¯Ã¢Â×õ «Ãº÷ìÌ
´ýȢ Åå¯õ ¦À¡ÕÙÁ¡÷ ¯Ç§Å"
«ó¾½÷¸ÙìÌ ¯Ã¢Â ¦À¡Õð¸û ±ýÚõ
«Ãº÷ìÌ ¯Ã¢Â ¦À¡Õð¸û ±ýÚõ ¦À¡Õð¸û
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¦¸¡û¸¢§Èý.
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±ýÚ ¸Õи¢§Èý.
"«ó¾½¡Ç÷ìÌ «ÃÍ Å¨Ã× ý§È"
«ó¾½÷¸ÙìÌ ºð¼õ ±ýÀÐ ¸¢¨¼Â¡Ð ±ýÚ
±ÎòÐ즸¡û¸¢§Èý.
"«ýÉ÷ ¬Â¢Ûõ, Ƣ󧾡÷ìÌ ø¨Ä"
Ƣ󧾡÷ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø í§¸ ÅÕ¸¢ÈÐ.
'¼¡¾¡÷ Æ¢ÌÄò§¾¡÷' ±ýÚ «ù¨Å ¦º¡ýÉÐ
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- From: " ÃÅ£ý" Raveen (@ user1529.lv.sprint-hsd.net)
on: Mon Apr 23 13:26:22
Dear Hemant,
Many Indian literary documents have what experts call 'layers'. Because most were memorized and finally written down, there was ample opportunity to interject new material along the way. This is verified by identifying the linguistic characteristics of the many layers. Even the mother of all memorized document the Rig Veda some say have later additions such as mention of the caste Shudra.
Similarly some Tamil scholars believe Tholkapiyaam has been tampered with and there should be some articles on the very subject to which I don’t have any references at the moment. Some others might have. Especially mention of castes and certain privileges are ‘self evident’ of such tampering.
- From: TAMILAN (@ )
on: Wed Dec 10 05:14:49
MALLAR=PALLAR
- From: mmc (@ 66.98.130.76)
on: Wed Dec 17 01:23:57 EST 2003
Tamilnadu is rogue state except for software professionals that too most of them are from Karnataka or Andhra.
- From: karthi (@ wc09.ym.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com)
on: Wed Dec 17 13:47:25 EST 2003
75% of Software companies has Telugu, kannada, and Northy software engineers in Chennai. Since local software engineers are fake and very low in logical analysis.
- From: Mavalangkilli (@ hse-mtl-ppp61482.qc.sympatico.ca)
on: Fri Dec 26 16:38:54 EST 2003
Thamizh naadu doesn't lack knowledge don't say that and it's all the politicans fault.
(Senthamizhudan kavipperumaiyum mangaatha arivum nann mannar aatsium pongidum veeramum thaipongalin azhakudan engkum malar vaasam veesum
anpaalum arviaalum aranaalum entrum perumai kondathu Thamizh naadu!!)
Now that's the old TN which was in three dynasty and was actually had Thamizh as it's official language now TN is this..
kodunthamizhum kalmanamum mangiya moozhaiyum mangaamal ullavai manga vaipathum kannaki sillai idipathum kodunthamizh koovilil uraipathum, thamizhanae thamizhanai izhipathum thalai therika anji oodum entrumai adimaiya vaazhum Thamizhp pannpaadum ozhikum naadu.
Now That's the nowday TN and more worst things to be named.
Now kalki wrote ponniyin selvan long time ago and after Chozha Empire so it talks of Chozha Empire am i right? Anyway after Sanga-matuviya kaalam about 300 A.D the TN went into aryan Rules and it was under the manipulation of Aryan ways and in later Sanga matuivya Literature the aryans took over TN. Anyway until Chozha Empire it remained under Foreigner..now i don't blame Chozhas because without them Thamizh would may be in a worst situation than this but Chozhars also did worst things like 'Ploughing the pAndiyan Ancient Castles with donkeys' and destroying old artifacts of Thamizh and then giving Sanskirit more right than Thamizh and not removing Sanskirit from Temples and to lot to be named. Yet Chozhars also made nampiyaandam nampi to bring out the 'theevarams' and to saving Thamizh and also Thamizh people and was made to be the Golden Age for Thamizh during chozha Empire now however the castism that was influenced to Thamizh by Aryans happened long time ago before Chozha but Thamizh didn't follow it till after Aryans took over now saying Castism excisted isn't right at all inside thamizh before the invasion of Aryans and the influence of their systems into Thamizh people. Now as you'd learn in history that in Sangam matuviya LIterature or the time when Sangam was dissolved it's when Kings considered to be the top of the Cast that Aryans brought and Indhra Festival was celebrated in TN and it can be noticed in Silapathikaaram written by IlangO. Anyway before that Thamizh people divided themselves into a group not literally but the people by the land they lived 'Mountain, Plain, Coast, Jungle, pre-desert' and people were called according to the job they say and what they did u can learn that by reading about Late Sanga Literature and that wasn't any castism. That's all i know and thank you and remember
"Epporul yaaryaar vaaikkaetpinum apporul
meiporul kaanpathu arivu"
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