Topic started by venky v. (@ adsl-67-116-5-81.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) on Sat Apr 13 02:13:40 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Doesn't look like some of the claims made for Tamil - that it is the oldest Dravidian language and other Dravidian languages are derived from it - are true, at least according to professional linguists.
See these links:

http://linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-most-recent/msg05450.html

I have read that Tamil is the oldest alanguage as well as origin of all other dravidian languages like Telugu,Kannada,Malayalam and Thulu.Is that true ? Can you please explain chronologically and the evidences for them ?
"No, neither are true. Statements like these stem from either ignorance, nationalistic silliness, or both. Tamil is a "sister" language of Kannada, Malayalam, and the other Dravidian languages and all are descended from a prehistoric language that is no longer spoken. We call this language *ProtoDravidian. We reconstruct, or that is Dravidianologists do, on the basis of similarities and regular differences in sounds in words among the Dravidian languages having the same or similar meanings. "

http://linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-most-recent/msg04829.html

"Second, no, the other Dravidian languages do not have their roots in Tamil. All the Dravidian languages are descended from a single common ancestor, an unrecorded language which we call 'Proto-Dravidian' and which was spoken some thousands of years ago."
It is always good to be proud of the language. But please don't make false claims.

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: UDAYA (@ mail.britishcouncil.lk) on: Tue Dec 31 06:47:33
  
  The fact that ''tamil'' were not able to establish in Sri lanka before 13th century arrival of Mukkuvan and Karaiyans on to mangroves and sand dunes of sri Lanka shows something amiss with this theory of having 2 original civilizations on both sides of the gulf of Mannar devided by a such a thick iron curtain that no archeological finding of ''that other civilization is not traceable in Sri Lanka.Actually it seems strange as that nisala narrate the story.But as we see that even in the south India there is no trace of such a civilization points us to that this second development is a result of Oraon like tribal hunter-gatherers penetrating into south Indian kingdoms as their lower social srata and imposing their language on original Prakrit speakers in the process.They learned deep sea sailing and came to Sri Lanka.But Singhalese state kept them out of their social hierarchy and they lived in coastal areas which are not suitable for irrigation developing economic relations with muslims first and later Europeans.This situation any way undermined the Kotte kingdom which ceased to exist as a result from 17th century
  
  
• From: udayaseneviratne2002sg@yahoo.com (@ mail.britishcouncil.lk) on: Fri Jan 3 03:58:53
  
  It is mesterious that if ORAON and GOND like tribes were from INDUS how at present some of them are hunter-gatherers without any knowledge of metallergy.Only RAJGONDS have something similar to ministatehoods not unlike karayans and mukkuvans had in their coastal mangroves and sand dunes.They never developed their exclusive areas into kingdoms.Particular royal pattern of administration in Chola,Pandya,Chera,Sathyaputhra and kingdoms in shri lanka were of Indoeuropean and their economy was based on irrigated agriculture similar to areas in Iran.
  
  There is collumn here connecting south indians except BRAHAMANAS and some groups of thelegu kshathriyas as of African origin based on HYDERABAD and UTAH university research.
  
  
• From: teluguvendhan (@ dialup-65.59.104.110.dial1.weehawken1.level3.net) on: Mon Jan 6 20:10:48
  
  The words below this passage by Tamilnadan are very true !
  I can also add that Telugu is also a changed version of Tamil and Sanskrit. If you read Telugu grammar , the words for "vetrumai urubu" are simply borrowed from Sanskrit ! Pradhana, bavishya , vardhmana etc denoting Tense are all sucked from Sanskrit.
  Niravetru is a compound Tamil word (Niraivu + etru = fulfill ) but this is camaflouged as Niraivechu in Telugu.
  All the numbers are more or less like Tamil numerals.
  Tirupathi should belong to Tamil Nadu as the name itself is a Tamil word !
  
  
  Ok...guys...stop urinating here... I want to point out a peculiar thing about kannada. I lived in Bangalore for about 3 yrs and I learned to speak kannada to some extent. I realized that kannada ia a basta*dized version of Tamil. I cannot say that about Telugu. Because I know some Telugu and Telugu has its own etimology. Yes...most of the words in Kannada are directly imported from tamil with a different syllabal at the beginning. For example...all the basic words in Tamil which start with 'Pa' has been imported as words starting with 'Ha'. "Haththu", "Haalu", "Ho" are some of them. One can argue that Tamil imported those words from Kannada. But consider the numerals in Kannada. They say Haththu for 10, but they don't say Ihaththu or Muhaththu or Naluhatthu and so on. Instead they say Ippathtu, Muvaththu, Naluvatthu and so on as in Tamil. Similarly the basic words in Tamil which start with "Va" were imported as words starting with "Ba". "Bandhu", "Bayee", and so on. There is a word called "Vaayil" in tamil. Its actually formed by joining "il" + "Vai" = ilvai which means illatthin vai = door. With a grammatical reverse its pronunced "Vayil". But kannada imported this word as "Bagilu", a single word....which is ridiculous. My kannada friend told me that its a single word...not two words. This proves that kannada is a language formed by some group who did not want to speak tamil but use the basic tamil words in a slightly different manner to form a new language. What a shame??? I am telling all the language gurus here that No one can prove that Tamil originated from any other south Indian languages. But u can always prove the other way. But I still want to say all the southern languages are contemporary in one sense.
  
  
• From: Miami (@ slip129-37-237-222.ma.us.prserv.net) on: Mon Jan 20 00:06:25
  
  Dravidian Messaih,
  
  Show us the proof that SANSKRIT is the mother of all European languages or that your GODS speak that language!
  
  If you listen carefully, you can hear your own croaking! Scum of the earth!!!
  
  
  
• From: Siva (@ cache83.156ce.scvmaxonline.com.sg) on: Sat Feb 1 14:22:33
  
  Tamil language,the oldest Dravidian laguage derived from the Asokan Brahman Script,
  wheras Sanskrit derived from the Dvanagiri script, and that Dvanagiri script derived from the Asokan Bahman Sript.
  SO NOW JUDGE URSELF NOTHING MUCH TO ARGUE GIVING EXAMPLES, JUS COMPARE THE BIRTH OF THESE LANGUAGES
  
  
• From: Siva (@ cache83.156ce.scvmaxonline.com.sg) on: Sat Feb 1 14:23:41
  
  Tamil language,the oldest Dravidian laguage derived from the Asokan Brahman Script,
  wheras Sanskrit derived from the Dvanagiri script, and that Dvanagiri script derived from the Asokan Bahman Sript.
  SO NOW JUDGE URSELF NOTHING MUCH TO ARGUE GIVING EXAMPLES, JUS COMPARE THE BIRTH OF THESE LANGUAGES
  
  
• From: Z (@ cache83.156ce.scvmaxonline.com.sg) on: Sat Feb 1 14:24:14
  
  WELL
  
  
• From: Siva (@ cache83.156ce.scvmaxonline.com.sg) on: Sat Feb 1 14:24:56
  
  Tamil language,the oldest Dravidian laguage derived from the Asokan Brahman Script,
  wheras Sanskrit derived from the Dvanagiri script, and that Dvanagiri script derived from the Asokan Bahman Sript.
  SO NOW JUDGE URSELF NOTHING MUCH TO ARGUE GIVING EXAMPLES, JUS COMPARE THE BIRTH OF THESE LANGUAGES
  
  
• From: God (@ 193.111.198.37) on: Mon Feb 3 23:21:34
  
  EDITORIAL
  June 19, 2002 VNN7392
  
  Sanskrit - Language Of The Gods
  
  VNN
  
  EDITORIAL, Jun 19 (VNN) — Sanskrit is the common language of the Hindu Scriptures. It is the oldest language in the world. It is the language of the Vedas, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, Mahabharata, Ramayana and the Puranas. Sanskrit literature is easily the richest literature in the history of mankind. The word Sanskrit literally means "Perfected Language" or "Language brought to formal perfection". This is quite an appropriate name since NASA declared it to be "the only unambiguous language on the planet". Sanskrit is a scientific and systematic language. Its grammar is perfect and has attracted scholars worldwide.
  
  Recently well-known linguists and computer-scientists have expressed the opinion that Sanskrit is the best language for use with computers. Sanskrit has a perfect grammar which has been explained to us by the world's greatest grammarian Panini. Sanskrit is also the mother of all indo-european languages and the big sister of Greek and Latin. It is the origin of all the Indian languages.
  
  The Sanskrit alphabet is called "devanagari" and literally means "cities of the gods". Rishis discovered Sanskrit and used it to create the mantras. These mantras were made up of a combination of sound vibrations, which when recited had a specific effect on the mind and the psyche. In the times of the Rishis, the main aim was to attain the truth, and what better medium than Sanskrit - the perfect tool. Due to its specificity and purity this seemed the best language with which to understand God's creation and as such is called "the great spiritual language of the world" (Joseph Campbell).
  
  Until 1100AD Sanskrit was without interruption the official language of the whole of India. The dominance of Sanskrit is indicated by the wealth of literature of widely diverse genres including religious and philosophical, fiction, scientific literature to include mathematics, linguistics, astronomy, medicine and politics.
  
  Max Muller, the great German scholar (and probably the greatest advocate for Sanskrit in the West) concluded that without knowledge of Sanskrit a liberal education would hardly be complete-India being the intellectual and spiritual ancestor of the race, historically and through Sanskrit.
  
  Even in translation the works of Sanskrit have evoked the supreme admiration of Western poets and philosophers like Emerson, Whitman, Thoreau, Melville, Goethe, Schlegel, and Schopenhauer.
  
  Dead Language? There are at least a dozen periodicals published in Sanskrit, all-India radio news broadcasts in Sanskrit, television shows and feature length movies produced in Sanskrit, one village of 3000 inhabitants who communicate through Sanskrit alone, not to mention countless smaller intellectual communities throughout India, schools, as well as families where Sanskrit is fostered. The famous Gayatri Mantra is on the lips of millions of Indians every morning. Sanskrit is not dead; Sanskrit is alive and well.
  
  From:
  www.cuhcs.org.uk
  
  
• From: madhu (@ 199.67.138.75) on: Wed Feb 5 15:56:04
  
  God,
  
  This Editorial is a pure unadultrated garbage. Not even one sentence in this article has truth. This is purely meant for Aryan Dummies to make them more Dumber. Good luck!!!
  
  
• From: madhu (@ 199.67.138.75) on: Wed Feb 5 16:05:38
  
  Siva,
  
  "Tamil language,the oldest Dravidian laguage derived from the Asokan Brahman Script,.."
  
  You are confusing the language with script. Tamil language(or close to it) was spoken in Indus-valley civilization 5000 years ago. The Tamil script is relatively new and was introduced around Ashoka's time. The modren written script was invented by Accadian around 700 B.C. Prior to that people used hieroglyphic to write and you will find them in the Egyptian Pyramids and the Harappa ruins.
  
  
• From: ram (@ 203.127.121.87) on: Tue Mar 4 04:56:39
  
  What the "editorial" says is true? Sanskrit is the mother of all languages. Did any one prove by combination of sound vibrations you can make fire or give power to a ordinary grass or make a stick like a SCUD Missle. these all r proved in the ramayana and mahabartha period. where saskrit is used. is this can be done by Tamil? still the mantras are having a enormous power. Why the sanskrit was ignored by the modern tamil speaking people means now this language is used only by the Upper caste people. so we r thinking it is people of Upper caste so we dont want to learn n dont want to speak and we r criticising the language. in the old days the upper caste people who are the teachers so they learned the language and taught them to the other caste people. since they learned the language still they are using it. so no need to blame sanskrit. becoz still there are some many mathamatical (vedic maths) and scientific things are found there in Sanskrit only. where not much in tamil.
  
  
  
• From: arnel (@ proxy1.skyinet.net) on: Wed Aug 18 05:33:40
  
  I want a copy of mahabharata script.Do you want to help me .
  
  
• From: GettingCurious (@ bbcache-8.singnet.com.sg) on: Wed Aug 18 09:44:07 EDT 2004
  
  why is sumerian language called sumerian tamil? just b'coz it is closest to sentamizh, is it? what abt sumerian's other sounds? why does the script on old temple walls like that of the thirumala temple called tamil while it looks like a kitchadi between the kannada / telugu alphabet and the tamil / malayalam alphabet? why is this mother language of dravidian languages not called dravidian but called tamil?
  
  

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